[IrfanibnIsmail]

http://www.jewfaq.org/g-d.htm

[DefendingIslam]

Salam Alaykum.

The following part is against Islamic belief:

Quote

G-d can do anything. It is said that the only thing that is beyond His power is the fear of Him; that is, we have free will, and He cannot compel us to do His will.

In Islam, we believe that what we feel as "free will" is also a creation of Allah, since Allah creates everything, including the thoughts of the humans and the actions of the human beings.

Also:

Quote

Judaism maintains that we are all G-d's children. A well-known piece of Jewish liturgy repeatedly describes G-d as "Avinu Malkeinu," our Father, our King.

It is unacceptable to say that Allah is our "father" even in a figurative sense, since a father-son relatiosnhip is always between two beings of the same nature.

Also:

Quote

Much of Rambam's Guide for the Perplexed is devoted to explaining each of these anthropomorphic references and proving that they should be understood figuratively.

I have heard that Maimonedes' attempts to reinterpret the anthropomorphic passages in the Torah was a direct result of Islamic influence, not due to Jewish theology per se, and that he was opposed by the Jewish Rabbis of his time for explaining things as he did.


Other memmbers can correct me if I have made some mistakes, but these are some of the errors I see in the link provided.

This post has been edited by DefendingIslam: 31 March 2010 - 03:59 AM

[DefendingIslam]

Please consider the following, from a post by a brother on another forum:

Quote

Allah has a body according to Judaism {Errors in Jewish Aqeedah}
Allah has a body according to Judaism {Errors in Jewish Aqeedah}

Israeli Jewish Website:

''We will bring some statements by our great rabbis who thought that G-d indeed does have a physical body''

''Maimonides, in The Laws of Repentance 3:7, wrote: "Five are called apostates…one who says there is one G-d to the world, but He has body and image." The Ra'avad criticized him, "And why is this called apostasy? Some of those greater than he [Maimonides] believed this, based on what they saw in the Scriptures, and even more on what they saw in the Aggadah, which distorts one's mind." This is the Ra'avad's testimony that Torah scholars greater than Maimonides thought that G-d has body and image (that He can be grasped by the senses). About Maimonides it is said, "From Moses to Moses there arose none like Moses" and who is "greater" than he? The Tannaim and Amoraim. Indeed, as we have seen, the Mishnah and Gemara reflect their belief in the physical nature of G-d, while Maimonides tried long and hard to refute these beliefs in his book "A Guide to the Perplexed" (see there). Certainly he would not have tried so hard and given so many explanations were the anthropomorphic concepts not so deeply rooted in the words of Chazal and the Gemara.

Thus testified R' Yedayah the son of Abraham, who lived in 13th century France (as brought in the Rashba's responsa, part one, paragraph 418): "It is very well known that belief in material aspects [of G-d] spread in the early generations throughout almost all the Diaspora from the very day of the exile." In the will attributed to Maimonides )Igros Kushta, 277, p. 15), it is written about the Jews of France: "They speak despisingly of the Creator, blessed be He, in their books, and use anthropomorphic descriptions concerning the Creator, blessed be He, time and again."

Moreover, Maimonides admitted that he really forced the Scripture to make it match his viewpoint -- his opposition to anthropomorphic conceptualizations of G-d. He wrote in "A Guide to the Perplexed," part two, chapter 25: "The Scriptures do not show that the world is created ex nihilo any more than they show that G-d has a physical nature. But the gates of interpretation are not closed before us…and it would be possible to interpret them [the verses speaking of the world created ex nihilo] as we have done when we rejected the physical nature [of G-d]…when we interpreted the Scriptures in a way denying G-d's physical nature."

This you should know -- all those whom Maimonides called apostates have explicit verses to support them! Maimonides has neither verses nor Gemara to back him up on this issue; not only is it not explicit in the Torah, repeated in the Prophets, and said a third time in the Writings, but the Scriptures show exactly the opposite, as the Ra'avad pointed out.

According to the Gemara, there are physical forms to those who serve the Holy One, blessed be He, and even G-d Himself has a form. What is His form? The form of Man. (Perhaps they determined this based on the verse, 'For in the image of G-d made He man," Genesis 9:6.) Therefore they specifically forbade the image of Man, as they said, "'You shall not make before me' -- you shall not make Me."

Rashi explained: "[All the prophets] thought they were seeing, but they did not see, while Moses looked through a clear aspaklaria and knew that he was not seeing His face." So we see all the Sages agreeing that Moses and the prophets all saw a physical G-d who has a form. The Sages merely discussed the quality with which they saw Him and which parts of Him they saw.

many of the Sages, the Tannaim, the Amoraim, and the Rishonim held anthropomorphistic views and believed that G-d and His angels, demons, Paradise, and Hell all had actual physical forms and a specified place in the world of our senses. In his fight against the anthropomorphic concepts of G-d Maimonides did not tread a well-trod path, but came out against the opinion of many of the best of Jewish sages. Maimonides's fight against those views was not easy, for the Scriptures are full of anthropomorphic descriptions of G-d and His servants, and it seems clear that the authors and readers did indeed believe in their physical nature. Maimonides himself admits that to block the opening he even distorted the text in the name of reason.

Daat Emet << Israeli Website

This post has been edited by DefendingIslam: 31 March 2010 - 04:14 AM

[Murat Yazici]

A few passages that may be relevant:

Isaiah 63:1:

'Who is this that comes from Edom, from Bozrah in garments stained crimson? Who is this so splendidly robed, marching in his great might?'

Deuteronomy 33:26:

There is none like God, O Jeshurun, who rides through the heavens to your help, majestic through the skies.

Judges 5:4:

'Lord, when you went out from Seir, when you marched from the region of Edom, the earth trembled, and the heavens poured, the clouds indeed poured water.

Micah 1:3:

For lo, the Lord is coming out of his place, and will come down and tread upon the high places of the earth.

Genesis 11:5:

The Lord came down to see the city and the tower, which mortals had built.

Genesis 3:8:

They heard the sound of the Lord God walking in the garden at the time of the evening breeze, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God among the trees of the garden.

Psalm 2:4:

He who sits in the heavens laughs; the Lord has them in derision.

2 Samuel 22:7-17:

⁷ In my distress I called upon the Lord; to my God I called. From his temple he heard my voice, and my cry came to his ears.

⁸ Then the earth reeled and rocked; the foundations of the heavens trembled and quaked, because he was angry.

⁹ Smoke went up from his nostrils, and devouring fire from his mouth; glowing coals flamed forth from him.

¹⁰ He bowed the heavens, and came down; thick darkness was under his feet.

¹¹ He rode on a cherub, and flew; he was seen upon the wings of the wind.

¹² He made darkness around him a canopy, thick clouds, a gathering of water.

¹³ Out of the brightness before him coals of fire flamed forth.

¹⁴ The Lord thundered from heaven; the Most High uttered his voice.

¹⁵ He sent out arrows, and scattered them —lightning, and routed them.

¹⁶ Then the channels of the sea were seen, the foundations of the world were laid bare at the rebuke of the Lord,
at the blast of the breath of his nostrils.

¹⁷ He reached from on high, he took me, he drew me out of mighty waters.

This post has been edited by Murat Yazici: 15 October 2010 - 02:06 PM

[Murat Yazici]

And then there is this ("wrestling with God"):

Genesis 32:24-32:

²⁴Jacob was left alone; and a man wrestled with him until daybreak. ²⁵When the man saw that he did not prevail against Jacob, he struck him on the hip socket; and Jacob's hip was put out of joint as he wrestled with him. ²⁶Then he said, 'Let me go, for the day is breaking.' But Jacob said, 'I will not let you go, unless you bless me.' ²⁷So he said to him, 'What is your name?' And he said, 'Jacob.' ²⁸Then the man said, 'You shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel, for you have striven with God and with humans, and have prevailed.' ²⁹Then Jacob asked him, 'Please tell me your name.' But he said, 'Why is it that you ask my name?' And there he blessed him. ³⁰So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, 'For I have seen God face to face, and yet my life is preserved.' ³¹The sun rose upon him as he passed Penuel, limping because of his hip. ³²Therefore to this day the Israelites do not eat the thigh muscle that is on the hip socket, because he struck Jacob on the hip socket at the thigh muscle.

***

Allahu ta'ala is exalted beyond what they say.

This post has been edited by Murat Yazici: 15 October 2010 - 02:16 PM

[IrfanibnIsmail]

I dont agree with quoting several verses that apparently may seem anthropomorphic, as a critic of the bible. That same mode of critic is being done against the Quran and hadiths too.

wa salam

This post has been edited by IrfanibnIsmail: 16 October 2010 - 05:21 AM

[Murat Yazici]

IrfanibnIsmail, on 16 October 2010 - 08:21 AM, said:

I dont agree with quoting several verses that apparently may seem anthropomorphic, as a critic of the bible. That same mode of critic is being done against the Quran and hadiths too.

wa salam

What I have written is not really a critique, as I have not commented at all (except after the last part where "God" wrestles with "Jacob" and "Jacob prevails.").

Can one make a case that all of these passages only "apparently seem anthropomorphic" without necessarily being anthropomorphic? (Quite frankly, I cannot imagine how.)

Perhaps you can enlighten us regarding how these are (and have been in the past) understood by Jews in general.

The last part of the article given by "DefendingIslam" seems important:

"Maimonides's fight against those views was not easy, for the Scriptures are full of anthropomorphic descriptions of G-d and His servants, and it seems clear that the authors and readers did indeed believe in their physical nature. Maimonides himself admits that to block the opening he even distorted the text in the name of reason."

Note: There is an interesting discussion here:

http://hilal-discour...Conclusion.aspx

One more note: Ibn al-Jawzi rahimahullah writes:

"The Jews liken Allah to His creation."

This post has been edited by Murat Yazici: 17 October 2010 - 08:15 AM

[Murat Yazici]

IrfanibnIsmail, on 17 March 2010 - 03:15 PM, said:

http://www.jewfaq.org/g-d.htm

The following statement may be of interest with regard to what has been said above:


G-d is Omnipresent
G-d is in all places at all times. He fills the universe and exceeds its scope. He is always near for us to call upon in need, and He sees all that we do. Closely tied in with this idea is the fact that G-d is universal. He is not just the G-d of the Jews; He is the G-d of all nations.

[IrfanibnIsmail]

I am not saying the jewish and christian belief does not have anthropomorphism. Nor do i say there is absolutely no anthromorphic influence crept into the bible. And just as it is possible that muslims have anthropomrphic sects within us, it is possible that jews and christians had such sects that became dominant.

But when going through the bible you will see a lot of majazi, iconic and imagery usage which is apparent to any reader that it is as such and not literal. And many of the verses you quote i doubt was ever taken by jews and christians in the literal anthropomorphic form. The imagery of the prophecies in the book of daniel is an example of the deep majazi usage.

Moreover, we shouldnt commit double standard for example by pointing out the verse in the bible "God created Adam in His image" and claim anthropomorphism. Because such is even contained in our hadiths. If muslims have understood them without anthropomorphism, so can those verses in the bible be interpreted without anthropomorphism. I instead refute their anthropomorphic understanding of that verse and point out the non-anthropomorphic interpretation wherever possible.

wa salam

This post has been edited by IrfanibnIsmail: 27 December 2010 - 12:28 PM

[Murat Yazici]

IrfanibnIsmail, on 18 October 2010 - 09:44 AM, said:

I am not saying the jewish and christian belief does not have anthropomorphism. Nor do i say there is absolutely no anthromorphic inlfluence crept into the bible. And just as it is possible that muslims have anthropomrphic sects within us, it is possible that jews and christians had such sects that became dominant.

But when going through the bible you will see a lot of majazi, iconic and imagery usage which is apparent to any reader that it is as such and not literal. And many of the verses you quote i doubt was ever taken by jews and christians in the literal anthropomorphic form. The imagery of the prophecies in the book of daniel is an example of the deep majazi usage.

Moreover, we shouldnt commit double standard for example by pointing out the verse in the bible "God created Adam in His image" and claim anthropomorphism. Because such is even contained in our hadiths. If muslims have understood them without anthropomorphism, so can those verses in the bible be interpreted without anthropomorphism. I instead refute their anthropomorphic understanding of that verse and point out the non-anthropomorphic interpretation wherever possible.

wa salam

Alaikum salam.

I agree with most (but not all) of what you say here, but I have the following additional thoughts.

(I do not see why you say "And many of the verses you quote i doubt was ever taken by jews and christians in the literal anthropomorphic form." Because, the articles quoted above indicate that many Jews had anthropomorphic beliefs for long periods in the past. What are these beliefs based on, if not on these or other such passages?)

There is no doubt that the majority of Christians have anthropomorphic beliefs, as -for example- Catholics say that Isa alaihissalam ("Jesus Christ") is God. That is anthropomorphism at its most extreme.

One dictionary defines anthropomorphism as "the showing or treating of animals, gods and objects as if they are human in appearance, character or behaviour."

According to this definition, tajsim and tashbih are more general than anthropomorphism (i.e. anthropomorphism is only one type of tajsim/tashbih).

Where do we place the statement "G-d is in all places at all times. He fills the universe and exceeds its scope?" A human being does not fill the universe, but there is tajsim in this statement. Being at places and being within created beings are properties of created beings.

I am neither an expert on "The Bible" nor very knowledgable on Judaism. I will welcome any informative articles/sources on the subject.

This post has been edited by Murat Yazici: 18 October 2010 - 03:29 PM

[faqir]

from al-Nawawi's Sharh Sahih al-Muslim

قوله صلى الله عليه و سلم ( فليكن أول ما تدعوهم إليه عبادة الله فإذا عرفوا الله فأخبرهم إلى آخره ) قال القاضي عياض رحمه الله هذا يدل على أنهم ليسوا بعارفين الله تعالى وهو مذهب حذاق المتكلمين في اليهود والنصارى أنهم غير عارفين الله تعالى وان كانوا يعبدونه ويظهرون معرفته لدلالة السمع عندهم على هذا وان كان العقل لا يمنع أن يعرف الله تعالى من كذب رسولا قال القاضي عياض رحمه الله ما عرف الله تعالى من شبهه وجسمه من اليهود أو اجاز عليه البداء أو أضاف إليه الولد منهم أو أضاف إليه الصاحبة والولد وأجاز الحلول عليه والانتقال والامتزاج من النصارى أو وصفه مما لا يليق به أو أضاف إليه الشريك والمعاند في خلقه من المجوس والثنوية فمعبودهم الذى عبدوه ليس هو الله وان سموه به اذ ليس موصوفا بصفات الاله الواجبة له فاذن ما عرفوا الله سبحانه فتحقق هذه النكتة واعتمد عليها وقد رأيت معناها لمتقدمى أشياخنا وبها قطع الكلام ابوعمران الفارسى بين عامة اهل القيروان عند تنازعهم في هذه المسألة هذا آخر كلام القاضي رحمه الله تعالى. (المنهاج شرح صحيح مسلم بن الحجاج , النووي , دار إحياء التراث العربي , 1392, 1 / 199-200)


The saying of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وسلم) "let the first you call them to be the worship of Aļļaah, then when they know Aļļaah tell them…" etc. Al-Qaađii ˆIiaađ (رحمه الله) said: "This (i.e. the foregoing statement of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وسلم)) indicates that they (the Christians) do not know Aļļaah, and this is the saying of the brilliant kalaam scholars regarding the jews and the Christians; that they do not know Aļļaah (تعالى) even if they worship Him (i.e. call what they worship by His name) and making it appear as if they know Him, based on what they narrate amongst themselves, even though it is not impossible in the mind’s eye that someone who disbelieves in a messenger does know Aļļaah." Al-Qaađii ˆIiaađ (رحمه الله) said: The one that likened Aļļaah to His creation, or believed Him to be bodily among the jews and Christians, or believed that He gains knowledge over time, or claimed He has a child, or a female companion and a child, or said he could exist in created things, or move from one place to another, or be mixed with creation, among the Christians or attributed to Him what is not befitting, or associated with Him a partner or opponent in creating among the Magians an dualists; what they worship is not Aļļaah, even if they called it that. This is because it is not attributed with the attributes that are necessarily His. Accordingly, they do not know Aļļaah (سبحانه), so realize this point well, and depend on it, and I have seen this point made by our predecessor shaykhs."


(courtesy sunnisanswers.com)

[Murat Yazici]

faqir, on 21 October 2010 - 02:53 PM, said:

that they do not know Aļļaah (تعالى) even if they worship Him (i.e. call what they worship by His name) and making it appear as if they know Him, ...

This is because it is not attributed with the attributes that are necessarily His. Accordingly, they do not know Aļļaah (سبحانه), so realize this point well, and depend on it, and I have seen this point made by our predecessor shaykhs

This is consistent with what Imam al-Ghazzali says:

"One who thinks of Allah as jism [material thing] that consists of organs will have worshipped an idol. One who worships an idol is kafir according to the ijma [unanimous agreement] of the imams of the salaf and the khalaf." (Iljam al-`awam `an `ilm al-kalam)

This is what I understand from these:

If one worships a(n imaginary) "god" that has the properties of material objects, he will have worshipped an idol even if he says he is worshipping Allahu ta'ala (i.e. even if he names that idol "Allah.")

[IrfanibnIsmail]

The following are some of the biblical verses i came across that can be used to negate anthropomorphism:

God has no form nor likeness

Deuterenomy 4:15-19:
"Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves; for ye saw no manner of form on the day that the LORD spake unto you in Horeb out of the midst of the fire: lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image in the form of any figure, the likeness of male or female, the likeness of any beast that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged fowl that flieth in the heaven, the likeness of any thing that creepeth on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the water under the earth: and lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the sun and the moon and the stars, even all the host of heaven, thou be drawn away and worship them, and serve them, which the LORD thy God hath divided unto all the peoples under the whole heaven.

“To whom can you liken Me; with whom I will be equal?” (Isaiah 40:25)


Worship the Creator, not the creation

And instead of worshiping the glorious, ever-living God, they worshiped idols made to look like mere people and birds and animals and reptiles [surely God is beyond that]... They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator [surely God is beyond that]—Who is forever praised... (Romans, 1:23-25)


God does not change

"I am the Lord, I change not" (Mal. 3:6)

Psalm 102:25-27: “Of old You laid the foundation of the Earth, and the heavens are the work of Your hands. They will perish, but You will endure; yes, they will all grow old like a garment; like a cloak You will change them, and they will be changed. But You are the same, and Your years will have no end.”


James 1:17: “......the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning.”

"He is in one mind, and who can turn Him? " (Job 23:13)


All things in heaven & on earth are a creation of God

… things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. (Colossians 1:16-17)


God is not dependent on creation


Psalm 90:2: “Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever You had formed the Earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God.”



God cannot be contained


"But, is it true? -- God dwelleth on the earth? lo, the heavens, and the heavens of the heavens do not contain Thee, how much less this house which I have builded! [1Ki 8:27]


God is not a man

"God is not a man" (Numbers 23:19, Hosea 11:9, 1Samuel 15:29)



God is perfect

Matthew 5:48 (Jesus): Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

"As for God, His way is Perfect," (2 Samuel 22:31, Psalm 18:30)

"His work is perfect" from Deuteronomy 32:4


God does not sleep nor rest nor get tired

“Have you not known? Have you not heard? The everlasting God, the Lord, the Creator of the ends of the earth, neither faints nor is weary” (Isaiah 40:28).


God is the First & the Last

“This is what Jehovah has said, the King of Israel and the Repurchaser of him, Jehovah of armies, ‘I am the first and I am the last, and besides me there is no God. (Isa. 44:6)

“Listen to me, O Jacob, and you Israel my called one. I am the same One. I am the first. Moreover, I am the last. (Isa. 48:12)

Which is explained as such:

"'I am the first' for I have no father, 'and I am the last' for I have no son, 'and beside me there is no God' for I have no brother" (Ex. R. 29:5)

This post has been edited by IrfanibnIsmail: 27 December 2010 - 12:30 PM

[Murat Yazici]

One Christian concept of "God":

http://www.chick.com...001/0001_01.asp

http://www.chick.com...005/0005_01.asp

http://www.chick.com...049/1049_01.asp

Notice the hand in the second link.

And, there is always a man sitting on a throne.

[Murat Yazici]

IrfanibnIsmail, on 27 December 2010 - 02:28 PM, said:

God is the First & the Last

"This is what Jehovah has said, the King of Israel and the Repurchaser of him, Jehovah of armies, 'I am the first and I am the last, and besides me there is no God. (Isa. 44:6)

"Listen to me, O Jacob, and you Israel my called one. I am the same One. I am the first. Moreover, I am the last. (Isa. 48:12)

Which is explained as such:

"'I am the first' for I have no father, 'and I am the last' for I have no son, 'and beside me there is no God' for I have no brother" (Ex. R. 29:5)

This is interesting. See also:

http://www.myjewishl...istianity.shtml

Typical is the comment of the late third‑century Palestinian teacher, Rabbi Abbahu, on the verse (Isaiah 44:6): "I am the first, and I am the last, and beside Me there is no God." As Rabbi Abbahu spells it out: "'I am the first,' for I have no father; 'and I am the last,' for I have no son, 'and beside Me there is no God,' for I have no brother."

This post has been edited by Murat Yazici: 31 December 2010 - 10:06 AM