[faqir]

Quote

why not translate the Ajwibah al-Ghaliyah of Habib Zayn, and then add detailed footnotes from these different works

as-salamu `alaikum sidi,
the problem with your suggestion (which is a very good one but...) - here as with the case of the Mafahim - is that this is not the job of a translator.
And, personally, I'd rather see these books come out as / is because a) if we wait for a scholar capable of such referenceing / editing / annotating to translate and/or edit such books we will be waiting a looong time and b ) these are contemporary works in many cases so why bother add what the author himself did not deem necessary to add to the particular work being translated from the original in arabic
was-salam

[Hamoudeh]

Assalamu `Alaykum Sidi al-kakazai

JazzakumAllah khayran for your suggestions. In regards to specialised works, please see my response in the thread concerning upcoming publications:

Hamoudeh said:

Works that are accessible to the masses are important as well, but I am not the kind of publisher that makes this an important priority. Sunni Publications is still a very new and small publishing house, who does not print more than 1.000 copies of a book at a time and are generally satisfied with single editions while hoping for a second time around some day insha'Allah. If at least 1.000 people can benefit from each book, then that is the kind of accessibility I am minimally after at this moment. If this is considered, then there are a wide range of works that are beneficial to translate for different purposes.

As for leaving such works exclusively in Arabic, you mentioned it in the thread quoted from as well; let us keep the same discussion in a single topic, rather than having to repeat ourselves. Your point is an ideal that I agree with but at the same time something that the history of Islamic literature in languages other than Arabic testifies against. The most difficult works can be found in numerous languages, originally written by scholars or translated with their approval. In addition to this, the appearance of the press, the rise of Orientalism and numerous other factors have lead us in need of comprehensive texts in different languages and English in particular as well. There are finer details to this of course, and your point concerning Imam Ikhmeemi's book. I am personally not to keen on expanding the pursuit of books in refutation of Ibn Taymiyya, aside of the ones we are already working on or considering, or the ones that have been published already.

Regarding the Shawahid, considering its uniqueness and that of its author [whose works have are not available in English] I don't think any other book needs to replace it. I appreciate the suggestions you made instead, but I don't think pursuing them has to mean not publishing Shawahid al-Haqq. As for Habib Zayn's, I merged your topic into this thread. Again Sidi, it is easier for us to be on the same topic if we want to come be on the same page. I am considering this suggestion insha'Allah, barakAllah fikum. However, compiling from them and combining them with additional explicatory footnotes is not something easily pursued for a small publisher. Such a project requires a great deal of work by a verifying scholar, and that is aside of the translation of the texts itself. I think changing titles is the responsibility of such a scholar as well, and not the job of the publisher lest it comes with approval by the author.

It shows that you have been or are involved in publishing Sidi, and it is nice to hear you have worked with Turath. If you don't mind me asking, are you the same brother that was posting about Shaykh Ibn `Alawi's Manhal al-Salaf in the topic on DeenPort about our latest publication, Notions That Must Be Corrected? As for any shifts in their focus, this is up to them and it may be for the best, wallahu a`lam. However, from my point of view this means that hopefully someone else will pursue the translation such works in the future insha'Allah. Not everyone merely keeps them on their bookshelves, and sometimes just a glimpse from a certain book sitting for a long time on a bookshelf untouched, can be great benefit to a particular person. Their books have been of benefit to me, walhamdulillah, and I pray that whatever kind books they choose to publish, they will continue to bring benefit to different people.

Wassalam

[Hamoudeh]

The 2 excellent suggestions by brother al-kakazai in the topic concerning upcoming publications:

* Athar al-Hadith al-Sharif by Shaykh Muhammad `Awwama
* Mukhtasar al-Mufid Sharh Jawharat al-Tawhid by Shaykh Nuh Ali Salman

I mentioned regarding them:

Hamoudeh said:

Athar al-Hadith al-Sharif was being translated by a scholar from the UK a few years ago, while another translator was interested in working on this book as well. I don't know what the current situation is, but I would like to be part of the eventual publication of this work. ...

Shaykh Nuh Salman's work seems to be an excellent suggestion and I will add this to the other topic and consider it for in the future insha'Allah.

Sidi al-kakazai, wouldn't you agree that there is a great need for basic beginner's material on Mantiq in English, for personal use as well as for being studied in study circles? To the best of my knowledge, not a single book of such kind has been translated before or originally written in English by an Islamic scholar. Though it can be argued that there are plenty of decent books on logic written by non-Muslims which one can use in absence of Islamic works, the reality however is that few Muslims have ever read anything of the sort lest they were students in philosophy or the like, let alone reading them with scholars. Yet, the basics of this science is of great importance for any beginning student, let alone those who engage in some research, comparison and argument. Everyone who debates in any sense or way, should be familliar with at least some of the basics of logic; there is no point in it otherwise. If you agree with some of what I have said, and consider logic something about which books should be translated, which book would you recommend Sidi?

BarakAllah fikum

Wassalam

[salman]

salamu `alaykum

Quote

why not translate the Ajwibah al-Ghaliyah of Habib Zayn, and then add detailed footnotes from these different works?

That is an excellent suggestion. I was thinking along the same lines.

Wasalam
Salman

[al-kakazai]

Salam

Ok.. We may not agree on all titles but maybe there could be some agreement on the following:

-Mantiq: It is interesting that you mention this, I was thinking of this myself recently, I am trying to find someone to teach mantiq, however many ulema seemed to have had a nightmare with it during their studies and arent too keen. Anyway a basic introductory text on mantiq would be good aslong as it could be used for basic beginners still getting to grips with their Arabic, I have found one called Bidayat a-Mantiqi, which is a version of Isaghawji made easy, along with diagrams. The main issue will be getting all the terms in english, if someone could get them to me I might be able to see if i can put something together inshallah.

-Ajwibah al-Ghaliyah: I know some people working on fairly detailed commentaries on Kitab al-Tawhid in a dars style format which then can be used in lessons, or read individually. Also how many people have been mislead by books such as the 'fundamentals of tawheed' etc? I think sometimes making language very simple and making the format accessible and easy to follow as possible is overlooked.

The same approach can be made with the Ajwibah, as for adding commentary and changing the title, Inshallah it should not be too difficult to make contact with Habib Zayn and get his blessings to do so.

What would be good is to have a proper commentary appended to the Ajwibah as opposed to lengthy footnotes,and make sure easy to understand language is used, for those who may not be sure what I mean, please refer to Sh Nuh Ali Salmans commmentary of the Jawharah which brilliantly explains difficult concepts/ideas in a wonderfully easy way.

In fiqh an example of an Arabic commentary which breaks down a text and makes it extremely easy to understand is Abyani's commentary of Qudri Pasha's 'Ahwal al-Shakshiyyah'

Have a look either of them, if this style can be reproduced in english, with footnotes to commentary clearing up more technical issues

[salman]

salamu `alaykum

For Mantiq (Classical Logic), a person should probably employ the terminology that is found within English logic texts themselves. There are a few beneficial books that come to mind, such as Miriam Josephs "Trivium" and "Classical Rhetoric for the Modern Student" by Corbett. Both are excellent, though somewhat advanced, works that give a detailed exposure to the subject matter.

So, for example, common Arabic terms have certain English equivalents in logic: qadhiyyah (syllogism), tasawwur (apprehension), tasdiq (affirmation), tanaqudh (contradiction), `aks al-mustawi (conversion), kulli (universal), juzzi (particular), murakkab (composite), mufrad (singular), jins (genus), nu` (species), fasl (specific difference),`aradh (accidental), khaas (property), and so forth.

In the end, as the logicians say, one can use any word they want. Words are not the issue, its the meanings they care which requires careful definition.

Wasalam
Salman

[faqir]

as-salamu `alaikum sidi,

the problem with your suggestion - here as with the case of the Mafahim - is that adding commentary/annotating/etc is not the job of a translator.

And, personally, I'd rather see these books come out as / is because a) if we wait for a scholar capable of such referenceing / editing / annotating to translate and/or edit such books we will be waiting a very looong time (years) and b ) these are contemporary works in many cases so I don't think its essential to add to what the author himself did not deem necessary to add to in the particular work being translated from the original in arabic. Obviously if there is already commentary of the text in arabic then that is another matter....

was-salam

[al-kakazai]

Salam

Aslong as the work is checked over and given the all clear by scholars I see no problem with adding and annotating, and it isnt a difficult task as some people are making out,it requires matching up and referencing information. I think the people at sunnipubs should be able to manage Inshallah. (Even Aftab managed it with his 'Broken Chain' book).

Likewise people have been adding and heavily annotating the works of many of the scholars of the past

I had an example of simple annotations on some aspects of the Ajwibah from a while back, unfortunately dont have it here to show and dont know where the file is.

Im sure if people can contribute a skeleton of points for the commentary it would make it easier.

As someone once said: Dair Ho Lakin Darust Ho

Doesnt matter if it takes a bit of time, aslong as it is produced properly and without thinking if only!



Salam

If it is possible for you to send a list of the terms?

I can have a look at the Bidayat al-Mantiqi text tonight and see if something can be done, this text takes the basic elements of Isaghawji and explains them with easy to understand examples.

Any help would be appreciated

Ws

Salam

If it is possible for you to send a list of the terms?

I can have a look at the Bidayat al-Mantiqi text tonight and see if something can be done, this text takes the basic elements of Isaghawji and explains them with easy to understand examples.

Any help would be appreciated

Ws

[Ibn Ajibah]

Sidi Hamza Karamali has a fairly decent translation (non versified) translation of al-Akhdari's Sullam. The only problem is that it would need a commentary, and would need to be published outside of the sunnipath course.

Regarding your suggestions for English books on logic, Sidi Salman, thank you so much. I have been looking for decent books in English. Can you send me your msn information via pm? I would be interested in talking to you about some of those terms in English that you are familiar with.

was salam.

[al-kakazai]

salam

would it be possible to have a look at this translation and any other list of terms?

Ibn Ajibah, on Sep 7 2008, 08:57 AM, said:

Sidi Hamza Karamali has a fairly decent translation (non versified) translation of al-Akhdari's Sullam. The only problem is that it would need a commentary, and would need to be published outside of the sunnipath course.

Regarding your suggestions for English books on logic, Sidi Salman, thank you so much. I have been looking for decent books in English. Can you send me your msn information via pm? I would be interested in talking to you about some of those terms in English that you are familiar with.

was salam.

[Ibn Ajibah]

Wa Alaykum al-Salam,

I didnt take the course, and was unofficially given the pdf doc for personal use. Im afraid im not able to give it to anyone else (as per the agreement I had with the one who gave it to me.) Having said that, if there is any particular part of the Sullam, or terms you are looking for specifically, I would be glad to type them up.

was salam

[al-kakazai]

Ibn Ajibah, on Sep 7 2008, 10:19 AM, said:

Wa Alaykum al-Salam,

I didnt take the course, and was unofficially given the pdf doc for personal use. Im afraid im not able to give it to anyone else (as per the agreement I had with the one who gave it to me.) Having said that, if there is any particular part of the Sullam, or terms you are looking for specifically, I would be glad to type them up.

was salam

ws

no probs, ill see if i can contact my friend at sunnipath, i also have a commentary for the sullam designed for an absolute beginner

[Ibn Ajibah]

Another recommendation: al-Nawawi's Bustan al-'Arifin

If there is an endeavor to publish something on logic, I would be a good idea to seek the assistance of Shaykh Amrullah, the former teacher at al-Qasid. He has done some good work on logic and developed some charts based off of the Sullam.

[salman]

Ibn Ajibah, on Sep 7 2008, 04:57 AM, said:

Sidi Hamza Karamali has a fairly decent translation (non versified) translation of al-Akhdari's Sullam. The only problem is that it would need a commentary, and would need to be published outside of the sunnipath course.

Regarding your suggestions for English books on logic, Sidi Salman, thank you so much. I have been looking for decent books in English. Can you send me your msn information via pm? I would be interested in talking to you about some of those terms in English that you are familiar with.

was salam.

salamu `alaykum

I pray you are well.

My msn is y_salman319@hotmail.com

There are a number of Islamic scholars who one can consult on a logic text in English, including Shaykh Talal Ahdab - who is one of the most impressive and senior scholars of the `ulum `aqliyyah and usul residing in Toronto -, Shaykh Ramzy Ajem, Shaykh Hamza Karamali, as well as a few others.

Better then to merely "translate" a classical text word for word would be to write a work based off a text, rearranged (which is sometimes needed) in a more accessible fashion with excercises at the end (and an answer key).

I am sure I can get some of the above mentioned scholars to atleast read over it, give suggetsions, and make corrections.

Wasalam
Salman

[faqir]

as-salamu `alaikum
excellent... when are you starting?