[Hamoudeh]

I am sure that after speaking with him three times about this, you can arrange for me to contact him personally. I assume you are willing to do so after bringing it up in this topic. I also expect you to provide proof for the retractions as requested earlier, as well as sending me any other refutations that you have mentioned or are otherwise aware of. I expect to find at least a start to this in your next post.

Wassalam

[sufitiger]

Hamoudeh, on Sep 14 2008, 06:01 PM, said:

I am sure that after speaking with him three times about this, you can arrange for me to contact him personally. I assume you are willing to do so after bringing it up in this topic. I also expect you to provide proof for the retractions as requested earlier, as well as sending me any other refutations that you have mentioned or are otherwise aware of. I expect to find at least a start to this in your next post.

Wassalam

I will be seeing Dr Akram before I leave for India and will ask permission, alternatively you can contact him at http://www.oxcis.ac.uk/fellows.html

I don't have a scanner so can't scan Shaykh Taqi Uthmani's piece on here but it seems faqir has a copy. The other copies I don't have to hand.

As mentioned earlier http://www.khairulmadaris.com.pk/ were at the forefront of the refutations as Sufi Iqbal was initially a mureed of the founder of the said madrassa, and he was blamed by the Deobandi Ulema for prompting the translation into Urdu. You can contact them at info@khairulmadaris.com.pk and the refutation was done by the Mufti of the institution.

This post has been edited by sufitiger: 14 September 2008 - 05:55 PM

[Hamoudeh]

I am only interested in contacting Dr. Akram al-Nadwi personally, and for you to arrange this as it is you who brought this issue forward and told us about his plans. As for contacting that website, it is not my job to run after claims someone else has made. It is up to you to provide the refutations you have mentioned, if you do not have them then you can contact them and get them. You can send everything to me through this forum, this website or the website of Sunni Publications.

I have Shaykh Taqi's taqriz, which as mentioned is not published in the book. What I am interested in is your claim that most Deobandi `Ulema revoked their endorsement, for as far as these endorsements were published. If you do not have this material to hand, then I suggest you get your hands on it and provide the proof for the claim you have made. If you fail doing so, then perhaps you can give me another reason why not to consider your claim as lies and slander upon the Sayyid and those who endorsed his book amongst the Deobandi `Ulema.

Wassalam

[al-kakazai]

Interesting points....

Strange then that Dr Akram translated the Istaghatha of Sh Ahmad Zarruq in the Bustan without any kind of footnote or comment?

Plus why does Sh Abul Hasan Nadwi write about the spiritual experiences of Imam Rabbani in the aforementioned work in a favourable way?

sufitiger, on Sep 14 2008, 03:47 PM, said:

faqir, on Sep 14 2008, 11:10 AM, said:

I will contact sh. akram insha'Allah.
perhaps sufitiger can elaborate also - where did he hear about this?

Dr Akram mentioned this to me in Nottingham in 2007 and again in London and Oxford this year. He referred me to passages in a few books of his own teachers such as Syed Abul Hasan Ali Nadwi's; Tarikhi Dawat-o-Azimat and his Arabic translation of Taqwiyatul Iman. Dr Akram mentioned that Syed Abul Hasan Ali Nadwi clearly expounded in length of the invalidity of Tawassul and Istigatha which are the central argument of the al-Mafahim and it has become paramount for Ulema to speak out against such translations in English. I'm not sure if he approves of the work in Arabic.

Dr Akram also mentioned if time permits he will review Shaykh Nuh's article on what he attributed to the Ulema of Deoband in his article http://shadhilitariq...o...7&Itemid=20 The review of the Reliance by Dr Akram is at his usual academic best.

I will be leaving for India in a month or so and will ask other senior Ulema of Deoband and Nadwa tul Ulema on this issue which seems will b a hot issue in the west

[Abdur-Rahman]

sufitiger, on Sep 14 2008, 05:47 PM, said:

faqir, on Sep 14 2008, 11:10 AM, said:

I will contact sh. akram insha'Allah.
perhaps sufitiger can elaborate also - where did he hear about this?

The review of the Reliance by Dr Akram is at his usual academic best.

Where was this review published? Do you know if it can be found online?

Sorry for diverting the subject,
Abdur-Rahman

[sufitiger]

It is not my job to chase Dr Akram al Nadwi up either. Like I said I will try to locate the other refutations.

I suggest you contact Dr Hanif Kamal who I understand is a Khalifah of Mufti Taqi Uthmani he listed all the refutations at his blog which no longer exists.

al-kakazai if you read the Sayyid's Tarikhi Dawat-o-Azimat it clearly shows his stance on Istigatha and Tawassul so I'm not sure why he writes about the Imam's experience in a favorable way, his students may know better.

how long is a piece of string? it's like asking why did Shaykh Taqi attend Mawlids with his noble father Mufti Shafi in Damascus and wrote unfavorably of it at albalagh

Abdur-Rahman, on Sep 14 2008, 07:06 PM, said:

sufitiger, on Sep 14 2008, 05:47 PM, said:

faqir, on Sep 14 2008, 11:10 AM, said:

I will contact sh. akram insha'Allah.
perhaps sufitiger can elaborate also - where did he hear about this?

The review of the Reliance by Dr Akram is at his usual academic best.

Where was this review published? Do you know if it can be found online?

Sorry for diverting the subject,
Abdur-Rahman

http://jis.oxfordjou...ter_pdf/7/1.pdf

you need to subscribe to get article.

a academic review of Sayyidi Shaykh Nuh's article would also be good by the likes of Dr Akram as it seems the Deobandi beliefs on issues like Tawassul, Istigatha, Imkan al Kadhib have been somewhat been molded in to be portrayed favorably in the 'traditional' scene. It may be accepted in English but would the article get the same acclaim if it was in Urdu?

This post has been edited by sufitiger: 14 September 2008 - 06:31 PM

[Hamoudeh]

sufitiger said:

It is not my job to chase Dr Akram al Nadwi up either. Like I said I will try to locate the other refutations. I suggest you contact Dr Hanif Kamal who I understand is a Khalifah of Mufti Taqi Uthmani he listed all the refutations at his blog which no longer exists.

Then it is not your job to bring Dr. Akram al-Nadwi into this thread either, or refer to refutations others have written, or make claims about any retractions, lest you understand your job to be the mere discrediting of the book through propaganda and gossip, for which there is no vacancy available on this forum as far as I am concerned. If your unsubstantiated claims are based on the no longer existing blog of Dr. Hanif Kamal, then perhaps you should have invited him to engage in this discussion instead of yourself.

Wassalam

[al-kakazai]

Is this the same Hanif Kamal who was distributing for free copies of al-muhannad and other deobandi authored works in defence of tawassul, and was keen to clarify the deobandi stance in support of it?

I mention this because I know he was sending free copies of al-muhannad to people along with other materials

And Allah knows best
ps. Im not a deobandi

Hamoudeh, on Sep 14 2008, 07:03 PM, said:

sufitiger said:

It is not my job to chase Dr Akram al Nadwi up either. Like I said I will try to locate the other refutations. I suggest you contact Dr Hanif Kamal who I understand is a Khalifah of Mufti Taqi Uthmani he listed all the refutations at his blog which no longer exists.

Then it is not your job to bring Dr. Akram al-Nadwi into this thread either, or refer to refutations others have written, or make claims about any retractions, lest you understand your job to be the mere discrediting of the book through propaganda and gossip, for which there is no vacancy available on this forum as far as I am concerned. If your unsubstantiated claims are based on the no longer existing blog of Dr. Hanif Kamal, then perhaps you should have invited him to engage in this discussion instead of yourself.

Wassalam

[sufitiger]

Hamoudeh, on Sep 14 2008, 08:03 PM, said:

sufitiger said:

It is not my job to chase Dr Akram al Nadwi up either. Like I said I will try to locate the other refutations. I suggest you contact Dr Hanif Kamal who I understand is a Khalifah of Mufti Taqi Uthmani he listed all the refutations at his blog which no longer exists.

Then it is not your job to bring Dr. Akram al-Nadwi into this thread either, or refer to refutations others have written, or make claims about any retractions, lest you understand your job to be the mere discrediting of the book through propaganda and gossip, for which there is no vacancy available on this forum as far as I am concerned. If your unsubstantiated claims are based on the no longer existing blog of Dr. Hanif Kamal, then perhaps you should have asked him to engage in this discussion instead of yourself.

Wassalam

the claims are not unsubstantiated, I will get hold of the refutations in India inshaAllahtaala

I have e mailed Khair ul Madaris if they can scan and upload their Mufti's Fatwa on the site.

It's interesting that Mufti Taqi wrote the taqriz in ARabic which was not published for whatever reason yet states he wouldn't have penned it if he knew the book was to be translated into Urdu.

[al-kakazai]

salam

found a link to an archive for that deleted blog

http://64.233.183.10...y...t=clnk&cd=1

can someone access it and see? it seems to be blocked where i am for some reason

ws

[sufitiger]

ps I'm not a Deobandi either even though I will be going to Deoband. Dr. Hanif seemed was anti Istigatha etc and used to have ago at the Deobandis who were watering down the beliefs of their elders to mix in with the 'traditional' scene in the west. He was very critical of Shaykh Muhammad Ibn Adam's Mawlid Fatwa and stressed the 'true' position of Mufti Taqi Uthmani as stipulated in his lecture at albalgh.

just found this

http://us.st12.yimg....2020_1936517618

http://islamicbookstore.com/b8778.html

al-kakazai from the Sayyids book - Tawassul and visiting Qubur is interesting reading. Not sure about the translation and if it has been watered down but the Urdu is not for the faint hearted.

can't wait for the DVD of Dr Akram al Nadwi's lecture of which the notes are at http://forums.islami...ead.php?t=11820

This post has been edited by sufitiger: 14 September 2008 - 07:47 PM

[al-kakazai]

Salam

Yes, I've seen this years ago, thats why in my previous message I said that for the biography of Imam Rabbani almost the exact opposite seems to be argued ie. validation of Imam Rabbani's spritual experiences which includes communication with those in the barzakh, which is slightly confusing.

Ws

[sufitiger]

al-kakazai, on Sep 14 2008, 08:52 PM, said:

Salam

Yes, I've seen this years ago, thats why in my previous message I said that for the biography of Imam Rabbani almost the exact opposite seems to be argued ie. validation of Imam Rabbani's spritual experiences which includes communication with those in the barzakh, which is slightly confusing.

Ws

a bit odd its like Mufti Taqi 'endorsing' the same book in Arabic and writing Taqriz for it but saying he wouldn't if he knew it was going to be translated in Urdu........ seems like a different message for a different audience

[Hamoudeh]

sufitiger said:

the claims are not unsubstantiated, I will get hold of the refutations in India inshaAllahtaala. I have e mailed Khair ul Madaris if they can scan and upload their Mufti's Fatwa on the site. It's interesting that Mufti Taqi wrote the taqriz in ARabic which was not published for whatever reason yet states he wouldn't have penned it if he knew the book was to be translated into Urdu.

For as long as you - who made the claims - do not substantiate them, then these claims are unsubstantiated for as far as this discussion is concerned. My request was for you to substantiate these claims, or otherwise explain why you can't, and this is your job if you take your claims seriously.

The first claim was that Dr. Akram al-Nadwi was planning to write critique of this book, and that you have heard this from him personally on three occasions. This claim can be substantiated by arranging for me to personally verify this with him, and if it is indeed as you say, then I can offer him to provide the Arabic edition we used and our translation of it as well. As I and others mentioned, scholarly criticism is welcomed.

The second claim is that others have written refutations of it, which can be substantiated by providing these refutations. So far, you did not even provide any details concerning them other than referring to the Khayr al-Madaris website which has no relevant material on it as of yet, mentioning Shaykh `Abd al-Shakur al-Tirmidhi without any title or further details, and referring to a no longer existing blog which has documented that what you are supposed to provide. You mention that you will try to get a hold of them in India, why did you not wait with your posts until you did so? Have you indeed seen those refutations, or is it all based on Dr. Hanif Kamal's blog?

The third claim- and this is the most important one for as far as publishing the Mafahim is concerned - is that most of the Deobandi `Ulema who have endorsed the book, have revoked their endorsement. Nothing substantiating this has been provided: no names, no references, nothing whatsoever. My question then, have you ever seen any of these retractions or are you here also basing yourself on what others said to have seen or researched? What you did mention was Shaykh Taqi's taqriz (which you initially called a refutation) which as far as I know was never either published or revoked. You mention that he regretted writing it due to the book being translated into Urdu. Is this mentioned in the Urdu part? I do not read Urdu, so I can't verify it. Perhaps you can quote and translate the relevant piece. If it is indeed the case, then perhaps this is also the reason why it wasn't published. I can imagine that the Sayyid would rather not publish the comments of anyone who regrets having written them.

As for you being Deobandi or not, this should not matter much though it may make one wonder about the reason why you are concerning yourself with these issues. Perhaps you can explain that.

Wassalam

[al-kakazai]

Salam

I posted a link for an archive for the defunct blog on which the list of deobandi refutations of the mafahim are supposed to have been posted, it should be easy therefore to verify the claim from the archive. It is blocked where I am so I cannot check.

Ws