[faqir]

Dhul Nun al-Misri was asked about the saying of Allah: "ar-Rahmanu `alal `arsh istawa" He answered:

"He affirmed His existence, and denied that He has a place. So He Himself exists independently, while other things exist by His Wisdom as He Wills."

Source: Risalah Al-Qushayriyyah, page 6




Al-Qadi Zakariya Al-Ansari said in his explanation of Ar-Risalah Al-Qushayriyyah on page 2:

"Certainly Allah is not a body or an atom and not in a place nor time."

[faqir]

Imam al-Kawthari, representative of the Islamic scholars under the Ottomans (d. 1371 H.), said:

“Declaring that Allah ta`ala is in a direction is considered to be kufr by the four Imams who are the guides of this Community ('Ummah) as al`Iraqi reported it from them about what is in “Sharhu'l Mishkah” of `Ali al-Qari”

- From ‘al-Maqalat’ of al-Kawthari

[faqir]

From Imam al-Qurtubi's tafsir:

قال ابن العربي: أخبرني غير واحد من أصحابنا عن إمام الحرمين أبي المعالي عبد الملك بن عبد الله بن يوسف الجويني: أنه سئل عن الباري في جهة? فقال: لا، هو يتعالى عن ذلك. قيل له: ما الدليل عليه? قال: الدليل عليه قول النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم: لا تفضلوني على يونس بن متى فقيل له: ما وجه الدليل في هذا الخبر? فقال: لا أقوله حتى يأخذ ضيفي هذا ألف دينار يقضي بها دينا. فقام رجلان فقالا: هي علينا. فقال لا يتبع بها اثنين؛ لأنه يشق عليه. فقال واحد: هي علي. فقال: إن يونس بن متى رمى بنفسه في البحر فالتقمه الحوت، فصار في قعر البحر في ظلمات ثلاث، ونادى "لا إله إلا أنت سبحانك إني كنت من الظالمين" [الأنبياء: 87] كما أخبر الله عنه، ولم يكن محمد صلى الله عليه وسلم حين جلس على الرفرف الأخضر وارتقى به صعدا، حتى انتهى به إلى موضع يسمع فيه صريف الأقلام، وناجاه ربه بما ناجاه به، وأوحى إليه ما أوحى بأقرب إلى الله تعالى من يونس في بطن الحوت في ظلمة البحر

___________________

Translation [Ibn Ahmad]:

Ibn Al-‘Arabi said: I have been informed by more than one of our colleagues about the incident pertaining to the Imam of the two Holy Mosques, Abi Al-Ma’ala ‘Abd Allah bin Yusuf Al-Juwayni, when he was asked about The Creator in terms of directionality. He said, No! He transcends that. It was then said to him: What is the proof for this? He said: The proof for this is the saying of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وسلم): “Do not give preference to me over Yunus Bin Mata (عليه السلام).” Then it was said to him: What is the level of proof in this report? He said: I will not disclose it until my guest takes the following: 1000 dinars in order to repay outstanding loans. Two men then stood up and said: we will take up this task. He said: this task should not be undertaken by two, because they will split the financial obligation. Then an individual (amongst them) said: Then I will (personally) take up the task.

Thereafter, the Imam proceeded to narrate the hadith and he said: Yunus bin Mata flung himself into the ocean and the whale swallowed him up, and he was thereafter surrounded by three layers of darkness at the very bottom of the ocean. He cried out: “There is no god except You, be You glorified. No doubt I have been amongst the transgressors.” (Al-Ambiya, 87). This is as Allah (ta’ala) has reported it in the Qur’an. And Hazrat Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وسلم) was not present when (Yunus) sat in the green meadows and ascended high above them until he reached a place where he heard the squeaking of pens, and his Lord entrusted him with that which the lord entrusts. He thereafter sent revelation unto him (and) Allah (ta’ala) has not revealed to anyone closer to Him than Yunus in the belly of the whale in the darkness of the ocean.

[Ibn Ajibah]

I cant believe I didnt translate this one a couple of years ago. In al-Kashif al-Saghir, Sh. Said quoted Imam al-Khattabi (who was 300 prior to Ibn Taymiya) who said in Ma'alim al-Sunan:

"What must be known in this section and what the intellects must master, is that it is not permissible to rely upon anything with regard to the Divine attributes, except the well known Hadith narrations, for the authenticity of their chains and the uprightness of thier narrators has been established. Certainly this is a must, because some folk from the people of Hadith [ahl al-Hadith] attached to expressions, the routes of which are not authentic, rather being from the singular and irregular [shawadh] narrations, and took them as a basis for the Divine Attributes and placed them among them [the hadith narrations pertaining to the Divine Attributes], such as the Hadith of intercession and the narration in which he--may Allah bless him and grant him peace--allegedly said: "So I shall return to my Lord and find Him at His place or in His place..." They claimed that this means Allah, the Exalted has a place, and far exalted is Allah from that..."



If someone wants to edit that and put some sentences in it that would be good. I just noticed that it is one huge sentence.

[faqir]

الدليل دل على أن من قال إن الإله جسم فهو منكر للإله تعالى، وذلك لأن إله العالم موجود ليس بجسم ولا حال في الجسم، فإذا أنكر المجسم هذا الموجود فقد أنكر ذات الإله تعالى، فالخلاف بين المجسم والموحد ليس في الصفة، بل في الذات، فصح في المجسم أنه لا يؤمن بالله أما المسائل التي حكيتموها فهي اختلافات في الصفة، فظهر الفرق. وأما إلزام مذهب الحلولية والحروفية، فنحن نكفرهم قطعاً، فإنه تعالى كفر النصارى بسبب أنهم اعتقدوا حلول كلمة { ٱللَّهِ } في عيسى وهؤلاء اعتقدوا حلول كلمة { ٱللَّهِ } في ألسنة جميع من قرأ القرآن، وفي جميع الأجسام التي كتب فيها القرآن، فإذا كان القول بالحلول في حق الذات الواحدة يوجب التكفير، فلأن يكون القول بالحلول في حق جميع الأشخاص والأجسام موجباً للقول بالتكفير كان أولى.

Imam al-Razi:

Proofs tell us that the who says that God is a body is a disbeliever in God (who is greatly above and clear of flaws). The reason is that the God of the World exists, and He is not a body, or stationed in a body. So if the one who believes that God is a body denies this non-bodily existence, then he has disbelieved in God Himself. This means that the disagreement between the one that believes that God is a body, and the monotheist (i.e. in the Islamic sense, namely that God does not have a partner, part or a like in His self of attributes), is not based on a disagreement regarding attributes, but regarding the self (i.e. the identity of the one attributed with godhood.) It is sound to say then, that the one who believes that God is a body does not believe in Allah….

As for the Hululiyyah (those who believe that Allah settles in created things, such as the sky or a human body) and Hurufiyyah (those who believe that Allah’s attribute of Kalam/Speech consists of letters and sounds) sects, we say that they are unequivocally disbelievers. This is because Allah declared the Christians blasphemers for believing that Allah’s speech entered into Jesus, whereas the Hurufiyyah believe that it settles in the tongue of all those who recite Quran, and in all physical things that the Quran was written on. Accordingly, if the belief in its settlement in one single body (Jesus) is blasphemy, then it is even more blasphemous to believe that it settles in all shapes and bodies


-Fakhruddin Al Razi. Mafatiĥ Al-Għayb. altafsir.com

[Translated by Sidi Abu Adam]

[faqir]

256 quotes in Arabic on Allah existing without a Place

[see posts 2-11]

These should be translated.

[sunnistudent]

Salam alaykum

Allah's Establishment Over the Throne

Interpreting Allah's Words "He Who is in the Heaven"

Interpreting the Hadith "Where is Allah? -- In the Heaven"

The "Book Written Above the Throne"

Ibn Hajar's Commentary on the Meaning of `Arsh

Interpreting Allah's "Descent" and the "Ascent" of Good Words to Him

Ibn Hajar's Commentary on the Hadith of Descent

Ahl al-Sunna Refutations of Those Who Attribute a Direction to Allah


THE HADITH OF ALLAH'S "DESCENT"

Part 1

Part 2

Part 3


Note: Everyhting except Allah is a creation. Allah created evrything. Allah does not need 'any thing" or any where to EXIST. He is SELF sufficinet , HE is as HE WAS , He does not change , He is not dependent on time , space ,location for His existence. He brought everything from the state of non existence to Existence. He is wajibul wajood.

Those who say that Allah needs time or a location for His existence are wrong . Those who say Allah is PHYSICALLY above the throne in a direction , are wrong. It Will then mean Allah was some where else before He created throne and then He "moved" from 1 place to another. This belief will mean Allah is limited and has got movement.

Indian Hindus have same belief. I can quote from their religious text ( in original sanskrit) and also the photogrpah which they publish in their books showing their lord sitting on the throne with curly hair.

The main website , www.marifah.net has got many artciles under Aqidah section. Every muslim should keep himself away from any one who says Allah has a direction or a location. It is a matter of Iman and we should take no chance in it.

Indian Hindus also say that one of their lord ( Indra) comes down the sky and on each sky he takes rest or watches dance .

[As Sondalaani Al Ash'ari]

بسم الله الحمد لله والصلاة والسلام على رسول الله وعلى آله وصحبه ومن والاه
السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته

As Salaamu 'Alaikum wa RahmatUllahi Wa barakaatuh to brother Faqir and the rest of the honorable brothers of the Marifah.net forum.

This is your brother for the sake of Allah, Abdur Rahman As Sondalaani from the Arabic and English Aslein.net forums.

First of all, jazaakumUllahu khairan for this and other threads you brothers have been posting for the defense and clarification of the true positions of Ahlus Sunnah. This is a huge ni'mah from Allah that we should never underestimate.

This being my first post, I wanted to contribute to this discussion and also benefit from the brothers In Shaa Allah.

Brother Sunnistudent, if at all possible, I request that you post the quote and picture you referred to here:

sunnistudent, on Aug 23 2008, 03:12 AM, said:

Salam alaykum...

Indian Hindus have same belief. I can quote from their religious text ( in original sanskrit) and also the photogrpah which they publish in their books showing their lord sitting on the throne with curly hair.

...Indian Hindus also say that one of their lord ( Indra) comes down the sky and on each sky he takes rest or watches dance .

...or some links to more information about this Hindu belief would suffice. JazaakAllahu Khairan in advance.

I also remember reading a pamphlet years ago from some Christian missionaries that depicted their deviated concept of "the Heavenly Father" as a really huge man made of light sitting on a throne with two shins, two hands, a face, basically the physical image of man except...bigger. Then I found it on the internet via Google....

http://www.chick.com...001/0001_01.asp

And if you take a quick look at the African version you can see the Christians clearly dipict the anthropomorphic understanding of the "uncovering of the shin" on the day of Judgement....well....kinda sorta.

http://www.chick.com...409/0409_01.asp

This post has been edited by As Sondalaani Al Ash'ari: 20 November 2008 - 06:27 AM

[faqir]

Quote

As Salaamu 'Alaikum wa RahmatUllahi Wa barakaatuh to brother Faqir and the rest of the honorable brothers of the Marifah.net forum.

This is your brother for the sake of Allah, Abdur Rahman As Sondalaani from the Arabic and English Aslein.net forums.

`alaikum salam sidi,
Glad to have you here bro!

[faqir]

faqir, on Mar 14 2008, 11:44 PM, said:

some further beneficial quotes provided by brother AbdurRahman:


وفي كتاب "الفتاوى الهندية لجماعة من علماء الهند (14) ما نصه: "يكفر باثبات المكان لله تعالى. ولو قال: الله تعالى في السماء فإن قصد له حكاية ما جاء فيه ظاهر الأخبار لا يكفر وإن أراد به المكان يكفر" اهـ. [/size]

And in the book Al Fataawaa al Hindiyyah (AKA al Fataawaa al Aalamgeeriyyah 2/259) by a committee of Scholars from India it says: “A person commits disbelief by ascribing a place to Allah Ta’aala. And if one said, “Allah is in the sky”, then if he meant only a narration of what came outwardly in the texts (without divulging into it’s meanings) he did not commit KUFR. But if he meant the place (itself) he commits KUFR.”

see scan:






يَكْفُرُ بِإِثْبَاتِ الْمَكَانِ لِلَّهِ تَعَالَى فَلَوْ قَالَ : ازخدا هيج مَكَان خَالِي نيست يَكْفُرُ وَلَوْ قَالَ : اللَّهُ تَعَالَى فِي السَّمَاءِ فَإِنْ قَصَدَ بِهِ حِكَايَةَ مَا جَاءَ فِيهِ ظَاهِرُ الْأَخْبَارِ لَا يَكْفُرُ ، وَإِنْ أَرَادَ بِهِ الْمَكَانَ يَكْفُرُ ، وَإِنْ لَمْ تَكُنْ لَهُ نِيَّةٌ يَكْفُرُ عِنْدَ الْأَكْثَرِ ، وَهُوَ الْأَصَحُّ وَعَلَيْهِ الْفَتْوَى

http://feqh.al-islam...895&Diacratic=0

[As Sondalaani Al Ash'ari]

بسم الله الحمد لله والصلاة والسلام على رسول الله وعلى آله وصحبه ومن والاه
السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته

faqir, on Nov 20 2008, 04:30 PM, said:

`alaikum salam sidi,
Glad to have you here bro!

Glad to be here. I see you still got that translation! Maa Shaa Allah. That scan is crystal clear and big enough to be a poster!

Sidi, what's the translation of the example? Is that Hindi? Farsi?

JazakAllahu Khairan

This post has been edited by As Sondalaani Al Ash'ari: 20 November 2008 - 10:07 PM

[faqir]

its farsi bro - i haven't got a clue what it means

[As Sondalaani Al Ash'ari]

بسم الله الحمد لله والصلاة والسلام على رسول الله وعلى آله وصحبه ومن والاه
السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته

Oh, I see now in the footnote #6 "No place is empty from Allah."

JazaakAllahu Khairan for this.

This just confirms what's in the Mutawwalaat on 'Aqeedah. Namely:

1. The anthropomorphists are two types:
a. Those who say Allah is everywhere-like in the quote from footnote #6.
b. Those who say Allah is limited to one place, over the throne.
2. A person does not commit heresy by quoting the text of Qur'an and Saheeh Hadeeth verbatim if their intention is not assignment of place or corporealness to Allah.
3. That a person commits Kufr by ascribing physical sitting or standing to Allah because of describing Allah with having an above and below, as came in the next quote from al Bahr Ar Raa'iq.

[tru_Qur'an]

Assalamu 'alaykum,

Masha'Allah there are a lot of quotes listed here in this thread but I think there should be emphasis on showing the authenticity of these quotes and not just the quotes themselves.

For instance, with the initial quotes that were posted by bro faqir, can we know if these quotes are authentic or not insha'Allah?

Quoting these statements in a debate, for instance, without knowing their strength leads to weak arguements.

Jazak'Allahu khairan.

This post has been edited by tru_Qur'an: 14 March 2009 - 06:00 AM

[abulkhair]

Salam

Read on a wahabi forum

A muslim said

Quote

Allah is over the Throne without being in a direction

A wahabi replied

Quote

What an idiot! Being over something means a direction and nothing else.

The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog... But not in a particular direction?

You're mental!

They still deny that they are anthropomorphist!!!

This post has been edited by abulkhair: 14 March 2009 - 10:50 PM