[hashim]

asalaamu alaikum

excellent thread and info brothers jazakum Allah khair .

[lumumba_s]

As salamu `alaykum,

faqir, on Mar 15 2008, 12:44 AM, said:

ابن حجر الهيتمي المنهج القويم:

واعلم أن القرافي وغيره حكوا عن الشافعي ومالك وأحمد وأبي حنيفة رضي الله عنهم القول بكفر القائلين بالجهة والتجسيم وهم حقيقون بذلك

Ibn Hajar Al Haytami Ash Shaafi’i says in his book on Shaafi’i fiqh, al Manhaj al Qaweem:

“And know that al Qaraafi and others related from Ash Shaafi’i, Maalik, Ahmad and Abu Hanifah (the four Imams) RadiyAllahu anhum: the statement of KUFR against those who allege a direction and corporealness (to Allah) and they are deserving of that.”

If someone could research and find a reference for Imam al-Qarafi's reporting, it would put an end to this argument - minus the usual weakening of evidence when it suggest otherwise.

[faqir]

Dhul Nun al-Misri was asked about the saying of Allah: "ar-Rahmanu `alal `arsh istawa" He answered:

"He affirmed His existence, and denied that He has a place. So He Himself exists independently, while other things exist by His Wisdom as He Wills."

Source: Risalah Al-Qushayriyyah, page 6




Al-Qadi Zakariya Al-Ansari said in his explanation of Ar-Risalah Al-Qushayriyyah on page 2:

"Certainly Allah is not a body or an atom and not in a place nor time."

[faqir]

Imam al-Kawthari, representative of the Islamic scholars under the Ottomans (d. 1371 H.), said:

“Declaring that Allah ta`ala is in a direction is considered to be kufr by the four Imams who are the guides of this Community ('Ummah) as al`Iraqi reported it from them about what is in “Sharhu'l Mishkah” of `Ali al-Qari”

- From ‘al-Maqalat’ of al-Kawthari

[faqir]

From Imam al-Qurtubi's tafsir:

قال ابن العربي: أخبرني غير واحد من أصحابنا عن إمام الحرمين أبي المعالي عبد الملك بن عبد الله بن يوسف الجويني: أنه سئل عن الباري في جهة? فقال: لا، هو يتعالى عن ذلك. قيل له: ما الدليل عليه? قال: الدليل عليه قول النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم: لا تفضلوني على يونس بن متى فقيل له: ما وجه الدليل في هذا الخبر? فقال: لا أقوله حتى يأخذ ضيفي هذا ألف دينار يقضي بها دينا. فقام رجلان فقالا: هي علينا. فقال لا يتبع بها اثنين؛ لأنه يشق عليه. فقال واحد: هي علي. فقال: إن يونس بن متى رمى بنفسه في البحر فالتقمه الحوت، فصار في قعر البحر في ظلمات ثلاث، ونادى "لا إله إلا أنت سبحانك إني كنت من الظالمين" [الأنبياء: 87] كما أخبر الله عنه، ولم يكن محمد صلى الله عليه وسلم حين جلس على الرفرف الأخضر وارتقى به صعدا، حتى انتهى به إلى موضع يسمع فيه صريف الأقلام، وناجاه ربه بما ناجاه به، وأوحى إليه ما أوحى بأقرب إلى الله تعالى من يونس في بطن الحوت في ظلمة البحر

___________________

Translation [Ibn Ahmad]:

Ibn Al-‘Arabi said: I have been informed by more than one of our colleagues about the incident pertaining to the Imam of the two Holy Mosques, Abi Al-Ma’ala ‘Abd Allah bin Yusuf Al-Juwayni, when he was asked about The Creator in terms of directionality. He said, No! He transcends that. It was then said to him: What is the proof for this? He said: The proof for this is the saying of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وسلم): “Do not give preference to me over Yunus Bin Mata (عليه السلام).” Then it was said to him: What is the level of proof in this report? He said: I will not disclose it until my guest takes the following: 1000 dinars in order to repay outstanding loans. Two men then stood up and said: we will take up this task. He said: this task should not be undertaken by two, because they will split the financial obligation. Then an individual (amongst them) said: Then I will (personally) take up the task.

Thereafter, the Imam proceeded to narrate the hadith and he said: Yunus bin Mata flung himself into the ocean and the whale swallowed him up, and he was thereafter surrounded by three layers of darkness at the very bottom of the ocean. He cried out: “There is no god except You, be You glorified. No doubt I have been amongst the transgressors.” (Al-Ambiya, 87). This is as Allah (ta’ala) has reported it in the Qur’an. And Hazrat Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وسلم) was not present when (Yunus) sat in the green meadows and ascended high above them until he reached a place where he heard the squeaking of pens, and his Lord entrusted him with that which the lord entrusts. He thereafter sent revelation unto him (and) Allah (ta’ala) has not revealed to anyone closer to Him than Yunus in the belly of the whale in the darkness of the ocean.

[Ibn Ajibah]

I cant believe I didnt translate this one a couple of years ago. In al-Kashif al-Saghir, Sh. Said quoted Imam al-Khattabi (who was 300 prior to Ibn Taymiya) who said in Ma'alim al-Sunan:

"What must be known in this section and what the intellects must master, is that it is not permissible to rely upon anything with regard to the Divine attributes, except the well known Hadith narrations, for the authenticity of their chains and the uprightness of thier narrators has been established. Certainly this is a must, because some folk from the people of Hadith [ahl al-Hadith] attached to expressions, the routes of which are not authentic, rather being from the singular and irregular [shawadh] narrations, and took them as a basis for the Divine Attributes and placed them among them [the hadith narrations pertaining to the Divine Attributes], such as the Hadith of intercession and the narration in which he--may Allah bless him and grant him peace--allegedly said: "So I shall return to my Lord and find Him at His place or in His place..." They claimed that this means Allah, the Exalted has a place, and far exalted is Allah from that..."



If someone wants to edit that and put some sentences in it that would be good. I just noticed that it is one huge sentence.

[faqir]

الدليل دل على أن من قال إن الإله جسم فهو منكر للإله تعالى، وذلك لأن إله العالم موجود ليس بجسم ولا حال في الجسم، فإذا أنكر المجسم هذا الموجود فقد أنكر ذات الإله تعالى، فالخلاف بين المجسم والموحد ليس في الصفة، بل في الذات، فصح في المجسم أنه لا يؤمن بالله أما المسائل التي حكيتموها فهي اختلافات في الصفة، فظهر الفرق. وأما إلزام مذهب الحلولية والحروفية، فنحن نكفرهم قطعاً، فإنه تعالى كفر النصارى بسبب أنهم اعتقدوا حلول كلمة { ٱللَّهِ } في عيسى وهؤلاء اعتقدوا حلول كلمة { ٱللَّهِ } في ألسنة جميع من قرأ القرآن، وفي جميع الأجسام التي كتب فيها القرآن، فإذا كان القول بالحلول في حق الذات الواحدة يوجب التكفير، فلأن يكون القول بالحلول في حق جميع الأشخاص والأجسام موجباً للقول بالتكفير كان أولى.

Imam al-Razi:

Proofs tell us that the who says that God is a body is a disbeliever in God (who is greatly above and clear of flaws). The reason is that the God of the World exists, and He is not a body, or stationed in a body. So if the one who believes that God is a body denies this non-bodily existence, then he has disbelieved in God Himself. This means that the disagreement between the one that believes that God is a body, and the monotheist (i.e. in the Islamic sense, namely that God does not have a partner, part or a like in His self of attributes), is not based on a disagreement regarding attributes, but regarding the self (i.e. the identity of the one attributed with godhood.) It is sound to say then, that the one who believes that God is a body does not believe in Allah….

As for the Hululiyyah (those who believe that Allah settles in created things, such as the sky or a human body) and Hurufiyyah (those who believe that Allah’s attribute of Kalam/Speech consists of letters and sounds) sects, we say that they are unequivocally disbelievers. This is because Allah declared the Christians blasphemers for believing that Allah’s speech entered into Jesus, whereas the Hurufiyyah believe that it settles in the tongue of all those who recite Quran, and in all physical things that the Quran was written on. Accordingly, if the belief in its settlement in one single body (Jesus) is blasphemy, then it is even more blasphemous to believe that it settles in all shapes and bodies


-Fakhruddin Al Razi. Mafatiĥ Al-Għayb. altafsir.com

[Translated by Sidi Abu Adam]

[faqir]

256 quotes in Arabic on Allah existing without a Place

[see posts 2-11]

These should be translated.

[abdur rahman mirza]

Assalamu 'alaikum,

Sayyidina Ali (ra): reported to have said “al-Istiwa is not unknown, and the modality is altogether inconceivable. To affirm it is obligatory and to ask questions about it is an innovation, this is because Allah was, when there was nothing, and He created place before there was a place, and He is in no need for a place”. [Reported in Tafsir Madaarik al-Tanzeel wa Haqaa’iq al-Ta’weel by an-Nasafi, under surah Taha (20) ayat (5)]

This is not Ali's but Imam Maalik's statement and there are additions at the end.


I love how you guys don't follow the traditionalist approach. And all your quotes are explained easily by the Ahlus sunnah. As for place and time, then Allah does not have limits and this is all in reference to the creation, meaning the Dunya and the skies.

As for what he has said in the Quraan and The Prophet SAW has said in the authentic Sunnah about his existence, then it is:

A) the Qur'aan
1) "They fear their Lord above them." (Qur'aan, "min Fawqihim", that can only mean above)
2) "The good deeds are raised to him" (Quran, al-Faatir)
3) "Do they not fear that the one above them..." (two Ayaat in surat al Mulk and "fee" samaa here means "above the heavens" and not "in the skies" as you brothers claim.)
4) Sending "down" the books, the rain, hikmah and every Ayaah of that nature.

The Sunnah
1) al Israa wal Meeraj. The Prophet (SAW) went above the seven heavens (above the creation) to see his Lord.
2) The pointing of the Prophet (SAW) up to the sky and speaking to Allah.
3) His mentioning that Allah is above us in authentic ahadeeth in Bukhari, Muslim.
4) The fact that angels come down and report back up to Allah.
5) THE FACT THAT ALLAH DESCENDS DURING TAHAJJUD. oh, boy this hadeeth is not Ahaad, but MUTAWAATIR.

C) Sahaabah
1) Abu Bakr "But for those who worshipped Allah, your Lord above the sky (fees samaa), lives forever."
2) A Sahabah to the Prophet: "wa Fawqal Arsha Rabbil 'Alaameena." "And above his throne is the Lord of the worlds."
3) Sumayyah: "But I was married from above the heavens (by Allah)." She has a special marriage commanded by Allah to the Prophet (SAW).

D) Scholars and logic
1) Ibn Al Qayyim mentions 200 proofs for Allah being above us.
2) first 40 books of Aqeedah in Islaamic history refuted the concept of Jahmiyyah (200 H) that Allah is everywhere as Soofees claim today.
3) Logic in that being way "above his creation" is the most noble direction. Everywhere has negative connotations and no where means he doesn't exist, naudobillah.


Shaikh ABU LAYTH, why don't you start since you supposedly magically change Salafees to Asharees. Why don't you try someone who actually has studied Aqeedah of the Salaf? And oh, instead of quoting scholars, maybe it would help to start off traditionally like I did. Maybe also give the correct quote of Imaam Maalik.

[Ahmad-Qadri]

Quote

THE FACT THAT ALLAH DESCENDS DURING TAHAJJUD. oh, boy this hadeeth is not Ahaad, but MUTAWAATIR.

It is ALWAYS tahajjud time somewhere in the world. So by *YOUR* shortsighted and unintuitive logic, what you perceive to be your lord, would be "downstairs" 24/7, which really negates *your* concept of "Allah is above". wal eyadhu bi(A)llah. Subhan Allahi 3amma yasifoon- al Wahid al-Ahad as-Samad al-ladhi lam yalid wa lam yulad wa lam yakun'lahu kufuwan ahad - laysa kamithlihi shayi

to answer the rest of your fitnah-thumping, see SheikH Abu Adam's blog for proofs to your comments:

sunnianswers.wordpress.com

He also has a good piece on your master yasir qadhi.

the real problem with you people is you are control freaks and want the world to run in conformity with your nafsanic whims and desires. you simply do not get satisfied until you somehow feel that you have captured an "imagination" or "vision" of Allah in your head. you simply can't reconcile with the fact that Allah is UNLIKE HIS CREATION IN ALL ASPECTS and can NOT be captured by any limits and that includes the limits set by the human brain.

[sunnistudent]

Salam alaykum

http://www.sunnah.org/aqida/aqida1.htm

Allah's Establishment Over the Throne


http://www.sunnah.org/aqida/aqida2.htm

Interpreting Allah's Words "He Who is in the Heaven"

http://www.sunnah.org/aqida/aqida3.htm

Interpreting the Hadith "Where is Allah? -- In the Heaven"

http://www.sunnah.org/aqida/aqida4.htm

The "Book Written Above the Throne"

http://www.sunnah.org/aqida/aqida5.htm

Ibn Hajar's Commentary on the Meaning of `Arsh

http://www.sunnah.org/aqida/aqida6.htm

Interpreting Allah's "Descent" and the "Ascent" of Good Words to Him


http://www.sunnah.org/aqida/aqida7.htm
Ibn Hajar's Commentary on the Hadith of Descent



http://www.sunnah.org/aqida/aqida8.htm
Ahl al-Sunna Refutations of Those Who Attribute a Direction to Allah


THE HADITH OF ALLAH'S "DESCENT"

Part 1

http://www.sunnah.or...%20Descent1.htm

Part 2

http://www.sunnah.or...%20Descent2.htm

Part 3
http://www.sunnah.or...%20Descent3.htm


Note: Everyhting except Allah is a creation. Allah created evrything. Allah does not need 'any thing" or any where to EXIST. He is SELF sufficinet , HE is as HE WAS , He does not change , He is not dependent on time , space ,location for His existence. He brought everything from the state of non existence to Existence. He is wajibul wajood.

Those who say that Allah needs time or a location for His existence are wrong . Those who say Allah is PHYSICALLY above the throne in a direction , are wrong. It Will then mean Allah was some where else before He created throne and then He "moved" from 1 place to another. This belief will mean Allah is limited and has got movement.

Indian Hindus have same belief. I can quote from their religious text ( in original sanskrit) and also the photogrpah which they publish in their books showing their lord sitting on the throne with curly hair.

The main website , www.marifah.net has got many artciles under Aqidah section. Every muslim should keep himself away from any one who says Allah has a direction or a location. It is a matter of Iman and we should take no chance in it.

Indian Hindus also say that one of their lord ( Indra) comes down the sky and on each sky he takes rest or watches dance .

[As Sondalaani Al Ash'ari]

بسم الله الحمد لله والصلاة والسلام على رسول الله وعلى آله وصحبه ومن والاه
السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته

As Salaamu 'Alaikum wa RahmatUllahi Wa barakaatuh to brother Faqir and the rest of the honorable brothers of the Marifah.net forum.

This is your brother for the sake of Allah, Abdur Rahman As Sondalaani from the Arabic and English Aslein.net forums.

First of all, jazaakumUllahu khairan for this and other threads you brothers have been posting for the defense and clarification of the true positions of Ahlus Sunnah. This is a huge ni'mah from Allah that we should never underestimate.

This being my first post, I wanted to contribute to this discussion and also benefit from the brothers In Shaa Allah.

Brother Sunnistudent, if at all possible, I request that you post the quote and picture you referred to here:

sunnistudent, on Aug 23 2008, 03:12 AM, said:

Salam alaykum...

Indian Hindus have same belief. I can quote from their religious text ( in original sanskrit) and also the photogrpah which they publish in their books showing their lord sitting on the throne with curly hair.

...Indian Hindus also say that one of their lord ( Indra) comes down the sky and on each sky he takes rest or watches dance .

...or some links to more information about this Hindu belief would suffice. JazaakAllahu Khairan in advance.

I also remember reading a pamphlet years ago from some Christian missionaries that depicted their deviated concept of "the Heavenly Father" as a really huge man made of light sitting on a throne with two shins, two hands, a face, basically the physical image of man except...bigger. Then I found it on the internet via Google....

http://www.chick.com...001/0001_01.asp

And if you take a quick look at the African version you can see the Christians clearly dipict the anthropomorphic understanding of the "uncovering of the shin" on the day of Judgement....well....kinda sorta.

http://www.chick.com...409/0409_01.asp

This post has been edited by As Sondalaani Al Ash'ari: 20 November 2008 - 06:27 AM

[faqir]

Quote

As Salaamu 'Alaikum wa RahmatUllahi Wa barakaatuh to brother Faqir and the rest of the honorable brothers of the Marifah.net forum.

This is your brother for the sake of Allah, Abdur Rahman As Sondalaani from the Arabic and English Aslein.net forums.

`alaikum salam sidi,
Glad to have you here bro!

[faqir]

faqir, on Mar 14 2008, 11:44 PM, said:

some further beneficial quotes provided by brother AbdurRahman:


وفي كتاب "الفتاوى الهندية لجماعة من علماء الهند (14) ما نصه: "يكفر باثبات المكان لله تعالى. ولو قال: الله تعالى في السماء فإن قصد له حكاية ما جاء فيه ظاهر الأخبار لا يكفر وإن أراد به المكان يكفر" اهـ. [/size]

And in the book Al Fataawaa al Hindiyyah (AKA al Fataawaa al Aalamgeeriyyah 2/259) by a committee of Scholars from India it says: “A person commits disbelief by ascribing a place to Allah Ta’aala. And if one said, “Allah is in the sky”, then if he meant only a narration of what came outwardly in the texts (without divulging into it’s meanings) he did not commit KUFR. But if he meant the place (itself) he commits KUFR.”

see scan:

[As Sondalaani Al Ash'ari]

بسم الله الحمد لله والصلاة والسلام على رسول الله وعلى آله وصحبه ومن والاه
السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته

faqir, on Nov 20 2008, 04:30 PM, said:

`alaikum salam sidi,
Glad to have you here bro!

Glad to be here. I see you still got that translation! Maa Shaa Allah. That scan is crystal clear and big enough to be a poster!

Sidi, what's the translation of the example? Is that Hindi? Farsi?

JazakAllahu Khairan

This post has been edited by As Sondalaani Al Ash'ari: 20 November 2008 - 10:07 PM